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1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 12:37:29pm

Jeffrey Goldberg has more:

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

2 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 1:24:11pm

The extent of my knowledge on Kahan Chai is the Wikipedia article and articles here and there. I've noted recently that several different flavor of ideotroll on LGF has been named as a Kahanist, but for different reasons, which suggests I don't have the full picture, particularly in regards to their social agenda.

Anybody who follows Israeli politics want to provide their impressions? I'd appreciate it.

3 Alexzander  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 1:42:00pm

re: #2 The Ghost of a Flea

I'd second this.

4 theheat  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 1:43:57pm
Some say, 'that's not our problem. When he comes back, he'll deal with it.' Of course, they are talking about their belief in what they call the 'second coming.'

I call these peeps Shalom Christians. They treat Jews like quaint little pets, like to co-opt Jewish sayings and even scripture, but they really tolerate them only because they believe in this Second Coming horseshit.

5 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 2:03:14pm

re: #4 theheat

I call these peeps Shalom Christians. They treat Jews like quaint little pets, like to co-opt Jewish sayings and even scripture, but they really tolerate them only because they believe in this Second Coming horseshit.

Fetishization. Even if they do more than "tolerate" Jews, it's a fondness based on a sense of entitlement to dictate what Jews are and should be. That liberal Jews are basically not-Jews--or at least at risk of losing their identity--goes hand-in-hand with this thinking.

6 Archangelus  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 3:50:40pm

re: #2 The Ghost of a Flea

Anybody who follows Israeli politics want to provide their impressions? I'd appreciate it.

Kahane was the far right racist politician and founder of the "Kach" (later "Kahane Chai") far-right political party. Some of his claims to fame while in the Knesset included sending threatening mails to Arab Israelis, racism against Israelis coming from Arab countries, attempts to establish any marriage or sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews as a crime and more. The Israeli government eventually passed anti-racism laws in 88 which effectively blocked "Kach" from running again.
The party ideology was based on notions that the law of the Torah/Halachah should supersede state laws, calling for turning Israel into a religious Jewish nation, and that the only solution to the Israeli-Arab conflict was forced segregation and expulsion of Arabs.
It used to be (and still is, to the best of my knowledge) that calling someone a Kahanist was basically calling them an extremist either on account of religious outlook, racism or both. To many, it's viewed as the Jewish ideological equivalent of Hamas.

7 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 4:19:47pm

re: #6 Archangelus

Thanks for the explanation.

They sound awful.

8 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 7:43:10pm

re: #6 Archangelus

I think the zenith of their (Kahane's) influence was in the 70s and 80s. If they exist now, it's a very small group. Their notion of what it means to be an observant Jew was superseded, I believe, by Chabad--who are observant, but quite different. I wouldn't know of a valid comparison to Chabad. I'll just say that even among non-observant Jews, there is acknowledgment that they are remarkable at outreach.

9 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 7:52:52pm

I've been reading the posts about this new Christian/Jewish alliance, and I can't quite get my head around it. It seems like two people who got together through a dating site, answered all of the superficial questions in a similar fashion, but really don't know each other.

Let's see how it plays out. Maybe they'll just end up as good friends. Can't see the political metaphor progressing to the stage of being in bed together.

10 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 8:55:53pm

re: #9 Bob Levin

I've been reading the posts about this new Christian/Jewish alliance, and I can't quite get my head around it. It seems like two people who got together through a dating site, answered all of the superficial questions in a similar fashion, but really don't know each other.

Let's see how it plays out. Maybe they'll just end up as good friends. Can't see the political metaphor progressing to the stage of being in bed together.

Given the summary of Kahanist thinking above--particularly the bit about extending the borders and remaking the government--they dovetail very nicely with the desires of individuals and organizations that await the fulfilment of the Book of Revelations...and in their own distinct interpretation...which they view as literal, but is actually highly interpretative and lashes in sections of other books of the Bible, plus revealed numerology, etc...the "next" events required for the Second Coming are: for Israel to return to its maximum historical borders, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the return of the Jews to Israel.

I'm sorry I can't remember the exact timeline off the top of my head...but I know that cluster are considered part of "what come next" in the End Times timeline...it varies a bit by group to group. After those achievements are unlocked (sorry, being glib...) comes the reign of the AntiChrist, and eventually the destruction of Israel by God and the Second Coming. While I don't think that every person involved in CUFI thinks this way, the skeletal base of the organization and the funding-providers are made up of hard-core end-times believers.

The other creepy, but subtle, confluence is that both groups tend to have a very constrained definition of "Jewishness"--one that is socially conservative. The most ominous statement that Wilder fails to gloss is in the last paragraph: we don't want you to act like Christians; we want you to act like Jews. That's who you are, that's who you should be. Unpack that statement while considering the speakers--men like Glenn Beck and John Hagee--and you realize that's not an open embrace of Judaism, but rather a presumption of entitlement to define "Jewishness" in their own narrow field.

As to what the Kahanists are getting...well, money and legitimation come to mind, particularly if they're fully on the outs in Israel proper. Beyond that I'd really be speculating without roots.

11 Bob Levin  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 10:09:00pm

re: #10 The Ghost of a Flea

I think we're agreeing. The Christian groups are excited about a connection to an Israeli group that they've read about on occasion. The Israeli group is hoping to get some legitimacy back. Sounds like two dates to me.

Seriously, there is a point in political relationships where one side expects the other side to deliver some goods (well, maybe we can continue the dating metaphor). Basically, neither group can give the other what it wants.

They should go their separate ways--but let's wait and see.

12 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 10:35:33pm

We're agreeing, absolutely.

13 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Aug 1, 2011 10:50:06pm

re: #9 Bob Levin

I've been reading the posts about this new Christian/Jewish alliance, and I can't quite get my head around it. It seems like two people who got together through a dating site, answered all of the superficial questions in a similar fashion, but really don't know each other.

Let's see how it plays out. Maybe they'll just end up as good friends. Can't see the political metaphor progressing to the stage of being in bed together.

It's actually not new. I think the bed metaphor is appropriate.

I don't know if they were members (we were estranged for the bulk of my adulthood until my mother's death), but my parents were on the CUFI mailing list. Dunno about my father, but my mother was a member of the National Conference for Community and Justice, which used to go by National Council of Christians and Jews, and as an educator, used to partner with the AJC on curriculum, though I'm sketchy on the details. So that transition makes sense to me, though it's an embarrassment.

Ghost of a Flea and theheat are 100% correct. Self-identified "Christian Zionists" have a very set idea of both "Zionism" and especially "Judaism", none of which has anything to do with the actual various practices of either.

A lot of those views are based in very crude stereotypes, some being outright antisemitic. If Kahanists want to get in bed with them, that's their business. But a statement like "we don't want you to act like Christians; we want you to act like Jews..." tells us everything we need to know about the speaker.

14 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 2, 2011 1:36:37am

re: #13 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think the Israeli word for the Christian Zionists might translate as something very close to 'tourist'. But it's cool. The sites with the remains of the Roman Empire are impressive. ;-)

15 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Tue, Aug 2, 2011 3:28:44am

re: #14 Bob Levin

Lol tourists...Wannabes? That reminds me of something else you said which I also think is true of the CZs...if the David Wilder types are out for legitimacy, the CUFI types are also equally as desperate for legitimacy, to avoid being called supercessionists. Afaic, they're just supercessionism-lite. That comes from knowing some of them, though.

You referred to it as a date, I might call it a dance of mutual disdain. :)

16 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 2, 2011 8:50:08am

re: #15 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

You referred to it as a date, I might call it a dance of mutual disdain. :)

Haven't dated much, eh? ;-)


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